What can you say about a series that spans 14 books, two authors, and over 20 years of publishing dates? The Wheel of Time supports a large and robust fanbase with its own yearly convention, and has been reread twice on Tor.com alone! Coming to the series for the first time as a new reader can be a daunting experience, and as a literary analyst, one definitely feels that there’s a lot to live up to. After all, fans have been analyzing these books forever, though there’s enough meat to the story to offer new discoveries even after many reads.
Given that there are another 13 books to go, I must accept that there are many questions I have about the world of The Wheel of Time—its logic, its systems, its people—that I may not get answers to for quite a while, yet. But keeping that in mind, there are a few things that I really am hoping to see when I start the next novel, The Great Hunt.
1. Point of View Changes: As many followers of the read have pointed out to me, most of The Eye of the World is from Rand’s point of view, with only a little bit seen from Perrin’s and Nynaeve’s perspective (and that tiny paragraph from Moiraine’s right at the end). This heavy imbalance, I have been assured, isn’t the case throughout the series, and I am quite excited to see the world through more characters’ eyes. Chapters from Moiraine’s perspective would be wonderful, and Lan’s too, for that matter. It would also be very interesting to see a few chapters from Mat’s head, if only to try to figure out how that trouble-prone brain of his works.
One of the joys for me in doing a read for this series has been trying to figure out all the mysteries of what is going on and predict future events, and spending time in the heads of characters with more knowledge than the young people from Emond’s Field will broaden the world for me and give a lot more clues about where the action is going; Moraine clearly has a Plan that no one else knows, and I’d love to get some more hints of that. It’s also fun for the audio books, which I have been listening to along with reading the hard copy, and have very much been enjoying. Having Kate Reading narrating the chapters from female characters’ point of view and Michael Kramer doing the chapters from male characters’ point of view really adds something to the experience of the changing perspectives of the novel, I think. Plus Reading has a nice sarcastic delivery which works excellently for Nynaeve, in my opinion.
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The Great Hunt
2. New Characters: Of course this is a given, but going off of the point above, having new characters will also expand the reader’s understanding of the world of The Wheel of Time. So far, the background of the places that Rand and company have traveled has included people of different ethnicities and varied backgrounds, which adds a richness and a realism to the world, but it would be so much better to have some of those characters become more central to the story, and to have chapters that read from their point of view. I would like to learn more about Ogier for sure, in addition to seeing more of Loial it might be fun to meet some of his kindred, and maybe there will be other non-human characters who show up as well.
It’s interesting; in my very first post for the read, I talked about how questing stories start with either a child leaving home or a stranger coming to town (or both). But Rand and the others have already left home, they have become more worldly, and although they are still green in many ways, they have also had some experiences that are beyond what the most seasoned warriors and wisest Aes Sedai have experienced. No others in their time have walked in the Ways, or faced the Forsaken, or tampered with the cursed treasure of Mordeth and Shadar Logoth. And as their adventure continues, they will become more knowledgeable, more experienced, and more talented. Perhaps in time, they will be the mysterious and dangerous strangers coming into a small town, and we will see them through the eyes of a new innocent who is about to get swept up in the fight against the Dark One.
3. The Aes Sedai: I really want to know more about the Aes Sedai. Obviously that’s also coming, but I am just itching to understand more about this clearly complicated system of training and ordering female channelers. Right now terms and references are occasionally dropped without much context (is the Amyrlin Seat a place or a person? or both?) and there have been a lot of mentions of some kind of color coding by position; Moiraine belongs to something called the Blue Ajah, while the Red Ajah are involved with controlling and “gentling” men who show the ability to channel. I am very interested in learning more about the Ajah classifications and the politics of the Aes Sedai, and I suspect that those politics will have an effect on the plot going forward, probably to the detriment of Moiraine’s plans and possibly negatively affecting Rand, as politics in stories are wont to do.
4 .The Horn: Okay, so from Thom I know a little bit about the Horn of Valere and the Great Hunt of the Horn; he told part of the gleeman’s chant about it, and he and Rand and Mat heard news about a Hunt being called in Illian, which apparently is where these searches are always organized. But given that Moriraine is now in possession of the Horn of Valere, why is the second book in the series called The Great Hunt? Presumably this is a reference to the Hunt going on in Illian. When Moiraine realized what it was, she said that it should be taken there immediately; that is going to have an effect on how the Hunt goes, for sure. Perhaps the Hunt is actually for something else? Hopefully they don’t lose the Horn or something, although plot-wise it would make a lot of sense that such a powerful weapon would be out of play for a while—it has to be saved for the last battle and that must go down in the final book.
5. Padan Fain/Mordeth: Speaking of loose ends left by The Eye of the World, what about Padan Fain locked up in Aglemar’s dungeon? I have a feeling that sneaky man is going to have a lot more tricks up his sleeve before this series is done; Moiraine is apparently unaware that Mordeth is in there somewhere too, and while Agelmar seemed unaffected by his slick words of temptation, I can’t imagine that everyone else in Fal Dara is going to be as resistant to Mordeth’s… let’s call it “charm.” What about the guards over him, or the people who bring him his food? Sooner or later, something is going to go wrong, or I’ll eat my hat.
6. The Shadar Logoth Dagger: We may also run into a similar problem with Mat’s dagger; a few commenters have let me know that the dagger will play a role going forward so I can’t claim clairvoyance there, but it is a pretty important and dangerous point that wasn’t taken care of by the end of the first book, so there has to be something more to it. Also, since Rand has his abilities and the threat of madness to deal with, and Perrin has his abilities and the fear of becoming distant from his human side to deal with, it makes a sort of parallel thematic sense to have Mat continue to have to deal with the dagger for at least a little longer. It’s going to keep drawing those Darkfriends, though, so watch out boys. Maybe Mat can master the power of the dagger, in some sense. Before Moiraine’s help he was merely getting subsumed by it, but it’s possible that a new relationship with its power could develop, and Mat might attempt to use it in a new way.
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The Ruin of Kings
7. The Taint: So it seems pretty unlikely that Rand is going to go mad in the next couple of books (not impossible, but I would be surprised if that was the direction Jordan took us) so that means that the taint on saidin is going to have to be dealt with eventually. And since it is the Dragon’s fault the taint was placed to begin with, it makes sense that now that he has been reborn, he should figure out how to rectify the situation. I suspect the key lies in male and female channelers working together; it has been said multiple times in The Eye of the World that the achievements of the two sides working together are far greater than anything one side can do alone. Plus, we now know from the Eye’s existence that the taint can be filtered out, although in that example everyone involved died, so here’s hoping they can find a less lethal way.
Ideally they would get rid of the taint, but what if they only found a way to filter it off, creating clean pools of saidin that Rand (and any other male channellers) would have to go to in order to use the Power? Now I’m imaging Rand carrying around water skins of pure saidin and rationing his use of it. That would be a very interesting limitation on the Dragon’s power.
8. The Dragon reborn: And of course, when is Rand going to realize who he is? He doesn’t really have enough information to understand it yet (as I have been reminded by canny commenters) but sooner or later it will come up. Maybe at the end of The Great Hunt? Moiraine knows, so she can always tell him when she thinks the time is right, but I do wonder if it’s the sort of thing that the reincarnated Dragon is meant to realize for himself at a certain point. Perhaps he will have visions of his former lives, or discover their memories somehow? Or maybe it is through his abilities as a channeler that he discovers his true strength, and thus his true self? If that’s the case, it may take Rand a long time to realize his identity, since he’s going to be trying to avoid channeling.
For me, as for so many The Wheel of Time fans, epic fantasy is in my blood. My Dad first read me The Hobbit when I was in kindergarden, thus unknowingly setting me on a path that would lead me through the accepted greats of the genre and beyond. But somehow, I missed The Wheel of Time, and I am terribly, intensely excited to be rectifying that situation now. And perhaps even better than discovering the stories themselves has been the community I’ve discovered of people who love these tales and love talking about them; I’m very grateful for the warm welcome I’ve received on this site from the commenters!
Please stay tuned for another post next week, and start gearing up for the start of The Great Hunt. And until then, may peace favor your sword.
Sylas K Barrett was once a small country kid who moved to the big city, and now considers himself at least somewhat well traveled. Perhaps that is one of the allures of epic fantasy quests, it appeals to the wanderlust in all of us.
Nice shooting, Sylas. That’s all I’m going to say at this point.
Good questions! You’re quite right, for some you might have to wait a while. But others just might get some answers sooner than you think!
I am so, so excited for you to keep reading :) You’ve definitely hit on some of the important themes.
// So it seems pretty unlikely that Rand is going to go mad in the next couple of books// – AHAHAHAHAHAHA. *wipes tear from eye*
I haven’t been commenting out of fear of hinting too much at spoilers, but I just wanted to say how great this read is how much I am looking forward to your coverage of the rest of the books!
Yeah, about that #1…be careful what you wish for!
Sylas, just wanted to say how much I enjoy your insights and writing style. Do you have any of your own writing waiting to be published?
I will say that all your wishes and insights come true, if not all in The Great Hunt, and perhaps not exactly how you expect.
I started this series at least 15 or more years ago (maybe 20? I think I started after A Crown of Swords but before Path of Daggers) and only read it once, so I’ve been really enjoying remembering it through your posts. As for your questions, 1 and 2 you may regret asking by the time you reach book 9 or 10, if not sooner. Questions 3-7 will be answered in time, some in the next book and some much later. And for question 8 I don’t know if this is really a spoiler or not but I’ll white it out anyway //You can just read the titles of the books in the series and get an idea on that one.
The questions you posed will be answered in the next 10 books or so starting with The Great Hunt. As far as new people and new cultures (including Aes Sedai) you may get more than you than you bargin for. LOL
*mad cackling*
I haven’t laughed like a maniacal evil villain in a long time , but each of these questions made me do just that.
Don’t hold your breath on hearing from Lan’s point of view, at least for a LONG time, but the other things listed are worth things to think about and hopefully get some sense of in TGH.
I can answer all 8 questions for you:
1. Read and Find Out
2. Read and Find Out
3. Read and Find Out
4. Read and Find Out
5. Read and Find Out
6. Read and Find Out
7. Read and Find Out
8. RAFO
Now your a real WOT fan, welcome :p
BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! A new convert!!! And to top it off, Sylas is also making THEORIES!
This is fun.
Enjoy TGH! My absolute favorite WoT book. Still gives me goosebumps.
What others have said.
Also,
It would also be very interesting to see a few chapters from Mat’s head, if only to try to figure out how that trouble-prone brain of his works and Also, since Rand has his abilities and the threat of madness to deal with, and Perrin has his abilities and the fear of becoming distant from his human side to deal with, it makes a sort of parallel thematic sense to have Mat continue to have to deal with the dagger for at least a little longer. – // Blood and bloody ashes, Mat!!!! That’s all I’m gonna say.//
(And I know it’s not actually a spoiler, but I have blundered so much with spilling things involuntary that I don’t want to take any chances anymore.
Pegged it: Ajah colors – BIG deal. Enjoy the ride.
@5:
That’s funny. I thought the same thing about #3
@@@@@ trench
Hahahaha! Welcome to WOT, indeed!
Sylas, if you haven’t already, read the Glossary of each book as you go. Jordan was infamous for dropping major clues in obscure places. The range and focus of the Ajahs, for example, is addressed to some extent in the Glossary for The Eye of The World.
Also, @12: RAFO=LMAO
Here are answers to your questions . . . out of order. Enjoy!
And even more of these.
Annoyingly, yes on many levels.
Annoyingly, you’re right, for many more books.
HAHAHAHA. So very wrong. And so very right.
So many different levels to that question. RAFO.
So, so many coming.
Way, way off base.
You would think not, but . . .
Great job Sylas. I can only applaud your insights, and join others on saying RAFO!
Let me give you a 9th question. After finishing the Great Hunt, will I have another 8 questions/things I want to see in Book 3 (which are have nothing to do with the questions 8 questions you just asked)?
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
@16 – Now that I think about it, it applies to #1, #2, and #3!
Ah, one of those entries where I read each point, start to type something and then realize anything I say would be constituted as spoilers, even if it’s something benign like saying whether the series stays Rand-centric or goes into multiple POVs routinely, so I just sit back, chuckle a bit and wait for TGH to be started.
Wish I’d gotten on board this read of it at the beginning, as by the time I found Leigh’s original one, I think she was about 3/4 of the way through it. Or something like that…with 14 books, it got a bit tricky to remember exactly where she was when I jumped in.
New characters?!?! The running joke with my friends who also read the series is that by the end even the groom (aka random background character) had a back story.
Oh, how I love watching someone read and react to fantasy stories for the first time. *wriggles with impatient glee*
This has already happened, only without the point-of-view change.
I will just say that I am loving this read through.
Now that I’ve finished my own reread (first time through on audio book), this weekly series is seriously helping with the sense of loss I get after finishing an involved series.
Responding to @18, another invaluable thing you find in the Glossary is phonetic pronunciation of all proper names. Jordan uses non-phonetic spelling to excellent effect, a trait that very few epic fantasists who don’t use invented language bother with. A lot of subtlety about allusions to other literature and some elements of geographic variation in pronunciation are hidden there. Plus, I feel it adds another layer of believability to the story that, very frequently, the correct pronunciation and stress accent of someone’s name isn’t the most obvious phonetic one for the English speaker.
P.S. It also helps Jordan conceal that he used the Charleston phone book as a jumping-off point for generating his incredible number of non-identical personal names!
*Cackles at all the things*
Jordan (aka Jim Rigney) graduated from The Citidel!
This is relevant to one of your “want to know more” items.
There are lots and lots of different characters. All important in their own way… I ended up marking pages and making a list of all Aes Sedai. Your going to need to keep track of them. I won’t tell you why but it’s important. I envy you reading these books for the first time. Mat is my favorite character by far. Enjoy…
Oh man; someone found a time-traveling monkey’s paw to wish on; didn’t they? *snicker*
1. This does change over time, as you have been assured. Be prepared for the next book to still be a bit Rand heavy, but the focus will shift a bit to what has been referred to in fandom as “the Supergirls” (Egwene, Nyneave, and a couple of future companions, some of whom you have already encountered). Perrin will get more as well; eventually you will get Mat POVs.
You will also get a bit more Moiraine POV, but such treats must be carefully doled out to keep the reader in the dark, else too much is revealed too early. You will not get a Lan POV while RJ is the author (outside of the prequel: New Spring).
2. The cast of characters will grow, and grow, and grow. One thing RJ does very well, especially in the prologues, is to give us a random, minor (or major) character POV to give us a different perspective and flavor of the world at large, as well as let us see our heroes in a different light. Sometimes the antagonist POV can be very effective in this regard as well. Sometimes I also wish he would have cut down on the regular POV characters through the mid point of the series though.
3. oh boy. Buckle up.
4. Yeah…RAFO
5. RAFO
6. RAFO
7. RAFO
8. You can look at the title of a future book here.
1 by far not the case. Some books rand is a side note.
2 youve met most. Others come and go.
Rest require spoilers.
Being a blogger on a website does not make one a literary analysist. Explain the plot of Ulysses by Joyce (i already know it) and ill believe ya
A lot of your predictions are going to come true. I won’t say which ones, for obvious reasons.
I find it interesting that so many people pick Books 2 and 3 as their favorite. I remember enjoying The Great Hunt, but it’s not my favorite. In fact, I think I only remember about three major things from it. It will be interesting to have the reread refresh my memory about it.
For the record, Book 4 is my favorite.
You made some outstanding guesses in your 8 wants for the next book! I’m excited to read your takes on the second book, it’s one of my personal favorites in the beginning of the series. Enjoy!
Clarke Kent Plumbing – ypConnect
Baton Rouge Plumbing
Sadly, we won’t be in Moiraine’s head much during the series. Some, bu not much, and never enough. We do get some good Lan POVs though, and I hope it’s not a spoiler to say that some of them are the most hilarious segments in the series, purely on the Batman principle, that is, an innately mundane act is made hilarious by the fact it’s Batman doing it. Same for Lan. Lan is the Batman of Wheel of Time. I also hope it’s not a spoiler to say that Mat has some of the best narration to be found in the series, and I hope you find it very enjoyable.
It’s no exagerration there will be literally hundreds of new characters. There is actually a database that tracked the number of POV charcters, which by the end of the series was in the triple digits and was only a VERY small fraction of the total number of important characters, never mind ALL the characters. And yet they’re slipped in so well that I’ve never felt a need to have a list, since they all managed to be distinct enough to be identifiable, whether it’s a small thing like a speech pattern, a favorite drink, hairstyle, etc. Many lesser and a few greater books and stories have casts of mains and supports this distinctive, and this series managed to do the same with about a hundred times more characters. The only words fit to describe this level of craft usually involves phrases with at least one word each of profanity, blasphemy or obscenity.
One thing to remember about the Aes Sedai is that, among the things they represent, such as organized magic-users in general, etc (which you’ll probably notice as you read, so I won’t spoil it) is that they thematically and linguistically represent the fairies, the fair folk, the Sidhe. And that’s all I’ll say, since anything else might spoil, but I just wanted to point out the similarity of names was not a coincidence.
The Horn is a wonderful Chekhovian device in the series. What KIND of Chekhovian device it is, however, I will no say, just that it was very beautifully executed.
Madness was dealt with very interestingly in the series, however, I’ll refrain from commenting for now except with this thing to ponder about a POV in the next book (anymore might be a spoiler): how can you tell if an unreliable narrator is insane if they don’t act insane?
Encyclopedia WoT lists 2,200 named characters, not including those mentioned only in The World of Robert Jordan’s The Wheel of Time aka the Big White Book. I’m not sure if that includes everyone in the last book, for which many of the chapter summaries on that website are still “under construction.” I don’t know how many are in the Wheel of Time Companion.
Sylas I’d like to hear your theories about the prologue in TGH the next time.
What did you think of the different attendees?
Who do you think the POV person might be?
@38 Granted there are over 2,000 named characters but some of them are just someone guarding a door and maybe saying one line of dialogue (if even that).
It does have 147 unique POVs although some of them are quite short.
Here’s a statistical analysis of the different POVs in the books. http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Statistical_analysis
It does contain some spoilers so beware.
Sorry, dude. You’re gonna have to slog thru 13 more books. BWAHAHAHAHAHA.
I suggest you keep a file of the questions you want answered and let us know how long it takes.
*cackle*
@38 – Encylcopaedia WOT is one of my favorite sites. I’m so sad they never finished the summaries (similar to how the WOTFAQ stopped getting updated after awhile…). I used to re-read the summaries of each book in lieu of an actual re-read when each book came out. And all the cross-referencing!!!
I’ve had another thought on the question of whether to commit to WoT. I think the best litmus test is: deep down, do you LIKE these characters? (Especially–do you fundamentally like Nynaeve?) That doesn’t mean that you don’t want to slap them upside the head, frequently. But reading WoT does mean spending a very long time with these rich, real, maddening, very screwed up people, and I’d argue that it’s more of a character-driven than a plot-driven story.
You can love WoT and hate individual main characters //the obvious example is the never-ending argument about Egwene, which I think may largely boil down to how high personal loyalty ranks in individual readers’ value systems//, but it’s really hard to love WoT if you don’t love at least a solid percentage of the main characters.
@43 Why Nynaeve particularly? In my previous reads (I started the series in the early 90’s when I was in my early 20’s – I mention this only because I am currently rereading (totally Sylas’ fault) and am holding off on my opinion of her this go round) Nynaeve was fundamentally my least favorite of the main characters. I wanted to punch her in the face most of the time. However I loved the series, and feel that her //moment of awesome// is one of the highlights of the book and I cry every time I read it, or think about it much.
The great thing about Nyneave is that I actually don’t know which moment you are referring to because she has so many (in my opinion) ;)
Just a few off the top of my head:
//
1)Beating her block
2)Defeating Moghedien
3)Healing stilling
4)Healing taint madness
5)Her work in cleansing the taint
6)Will he ride alone?
7)(my personal favorite) – her “failure” of her Aes Sedai test and telling the Aes Sedai where to stick it (and later demanding Lan’s bond from Myrelle)
//
I am with you, Lisamarie! Nynaeve is my favorite character in WoT and one of my favorite characters in literature, period. I tried to convince my husband to let me name our daughter Nynaeve but had no luck! I think the really special thing about Nynaeve is that she speaks to everyone – she is rebellious and sometimes petty like a teenager, she is loyal and protective like a parent, she is dogged and persistent like a young adult trying to find their way in the world, etc. I do agree that WoT is very character-driven, though. It becomes clear to me that this is the case once the concept of ta’veren is introduced.
BTW, I can’t believe no one has asked Sylas’ opinion of the EPIC COVER ART yet! Or as I call it, the ugh-this-is-embarrassing-this-is-why-I-took-the-covers-off-all-my-hardbacks.
@46 Evelina
I would totally have been willing to name a daughter of mine Nynaeve. Doubtful I could have gotten the wife to agree :)
Also there’s the obstacle of us not actually having any children, but still. Nynaeve is my favorite also, with Mat a close second.
@47 – Wait until he gets to Lord of Chaos!
I’m a bit surprised that none of the comments have picked up on //“Hopefully they don’t lose the Horn or something,”// yet…
@50 if anyone is like me, they snorted/snickered/laughed uncontrollably, and left it at that…
@45 I was thinking //Will he ride alone?// with //her final surrender and overcoming her block// also in mind – though the 2nd doesn’t get me teary, but it is awesome.. What drove/drives me nuts about Nynaeve is her (to me) complete and utterly unreasonable hatred of Moiraine.. “I WILL MAKE HER PAY” blah blah BLAARRRGH… and the fact that she reminds me of my bossy older sister who I do love, but makes me crazy.
@48 Mat is my favorite along with //Aviendha and most of the Aiel in general, Bair!! Soriela!!, I cried over Rhurarch (sp??)//
@49 I still haven’t decided whether Lord of Chaos or The Shadow Rising is the worst cover. Or, indeed, The Great Hunt. So many choices. . .shudder. . .ebook paintings SO much better. . .
@50 ///”Will he ride alone?” and “The Golden Crane flies for Tarmon Gai’don,” He said softly,” and every step and every man that joined him in between – tears and chills, every time.// The discussions here about Nynaeve make me want to do an informal poll, I’m pretty sure older siblings, //especially the bossy, self-righteous, borderline-and-crossing abusive martyr types (no, I don’t have any issues, why do you ask?)// tend to like her while younger siblings not so much. //What I really disliked, and I think her hatred of Moraine is a part of this, is how she just cannot stand anyone to have any kind of authority or power over her, how completely unreasonable she can be in those circumstances, or even worse how she acted if anyone seems to have more strength or talent than her, not just in the power but in anything, like with Alise and the Kin. I guess I just see all of her prickliness being a result of arrogance and insecurity, and a need to attack and tear others down when she’s feeling weak or uncertain. But, you know, I’m probably a bit biased on these issues :). //
My above comment @53, that’s supposed to be directed @51 goldeyeliner.
@53 – honestly, I find your generalization borderline offensive and inappropriate. (For the record, I’m basically an only child. I do have a younger sister but as she was born 13 years later we don’t have the same kind of dynamic in terms of birth order as other sibling pairs might. We’re close but never went through stages where we were developmentally close enough that one of us would be bossy/controlling/resentful of the other. I started college when she started Kindergarten.)
@53 – Younger sisters UNITE!!! WOooo..
@55 – for reals? I mean you are kidding right?
No, the generalization that, obviously, there is some correlation between being ‘bossy, self righteous and borderline abusive’ and liking Nyneave is flat out ridiculous (and I’m not whiting it out because it’s not even a spoiler).
@57 I agree my characterization is a bit over the top and I tried to make it clear that it was very much colored by my personal experiences and biases. I do apologize for the offensive implication that liking Nynaeve correlates with being “bossy, self righteous and bordeline abusive,” I honestly was not thinking that. I do think that anyone who has been on the receiving end of that kind of treatment will probably have a pretty strong dislike of Nynaeve.
My previous comment was very one-sided – I can see the good in Nynaeve and I admire her passion and compassion very much, but her negative personality issues are kind of triggering for me, obviously.
I do think in general that people who are older siblings will probably relate more to her and be more prone to like her – I do not think that liking Nynaeve correlates with being abusive or having abusive tendencies. But I can totally see how my comment could read that way and, again, I apologize for that.
FYI, I’m the youngest of three males, and Nynaeve is still my favorite. Of course, I’m a guy, so maybe that doesn’t count…
@@@@@ Lynn – I thought you were kidding, but your apology to Lisamarie was very nice. :)
FWIW, I am a middle sister (my older sister and younger sister are both 2.5 years away from me in age) and still adore Nynaeve. That //irrational and over the top hatred of Moiraine// is why I said Nynaeve has some teenage qualities; I feel like that is one mark of her immaturity in the series. It is definitely one of the reasons why I don’t like her quite as well in the early books as I do in the later ones when that gets toned down a bit, but I love her throughout despite her imperfections. She would be pretty amazing to have as a friend!
@@@@@ 48 – Good luck convincing your wife if you ever decide to have kids. :) I couldn’t make it happen; our beautiful daughter was named Laurel instead.
The only WoT name I’ve ever heard of anyone in the fandom successfully getting onto a birth certificate was Elayne. I do know someone who came within mere inches of being named Perrin, but that was pre-WoT. It’s a traditional Cornish name. A bit like how you do (rarely) meet American men named Rand.
@57 – I didn’t read Lynn’s comment that way at all, and I think her apology was lovely. I will add mine.
I’m one of 7 with older and younger siblings….
People in the WoT fan groups I frequent on Facebook report naming their children Matrim, ///Aviendha///, Nynaeve (iirc), and probably other names I’ve forgotten. Also Perrin and Rand, pre-WoT names.
@39: Very true. Although the One Steve Limit is enforced fairly rigorously with regard to identical names,* I one read through the Encyclopedia WoT listings to count the first names shared by multiple characters and was surprised by how many I found (though I don’t have a record of the number now) because in most cases one or both/all of the characters were so minor that I had forgotten them.
I hate very few WoT characters, aside from ///some of the ones who commit rape and/or torture//. I can find them boring when they’re involved with boring things like battles or politics,** but I didn’t find them annoying. Not the women, anyway. Maybe some of the men. I found the women more relatable and generally admirable in a flawed-human way.
*There are many instances of characters with very similar but not identical first names, which is confusing.
**A Song of Ice and Fire, and to some extent Stormlight Archive, are pretty much the only fiction stories that have managed to get me interested in their complex battles and politics.
@60 Evelina
We’re well past having kids, but thanks :D
It’s hard to argue with a name like “Laurel”, that’s lovely
I was joking, especially as to how I was projecting my own issues onto Nynaeve, but I really don’t want anyone to think I was conflating being an older sibling or liking Nynaeve with being an abusive person.
It was actually a comment early on in the reread that started me wondering, someone said they were an older sibling and they kind of related to Nynaeve, the love, the sense of responsibility, and the fear that goes along with responsibility, and how exacerbating younger siblings can be – it did make me see Nynaeve in a new light, and understand my own reactions to her better. I mean, I really, really hated her those early books, more than she probably deserved, didn’t want to consider her immaturity, or the pressures she was under.
I’m the youngest of 3, family was a bit dysfunctional :), and it’s the continuation of that dysfunction into adulthood that I was thinking of when I made the comment, not the normal sibling birth order stuff necessarily. It’s kind of more about things like narcissistic tendencies and religious fundamentalism, the sibling relationship just exacerbating all of that. So, yeah, I kind of react strongly to Nynaeve’s bullying, and have the same issues with other characters and groups throughout the series.
But putting my personal stuff aside, I thought it was interesting that maybe older or oldest siblings might relate to her a little better than I did.
Now I just need to figure out why I’m so firmly on the dislike Egwene camp. People are mentioning disloyalty – do they mean disloyalty to Rand? I don’t think that’s what bothers me. And now I wonder if there’s any correlation with how people feel about Nynaeve and how they feel about Egwene? And now I want to plot out all the major and major-minor characters, see how people’s likes and dislikes line up. A new WOT personality test or something ;).
I think I might be in the ambivalent camp toward Egwene.. is that a thing? No strong love or hate.. I did find her //moment of awesome to be when she wove red ribbons in her hair and rode to the bridge at Tar Valon to reunite the tower.. not sure why the red ribbons get to me so much, as I spent the series finding the red ajah despicable// I admit I teared up..
@65 I love the idea of a WoT personality test :D
Glad to hear that someone managed to get the name //Aviendha// out into the real world. IMHO, Jordan’s most beautiful personal name from a phonological standpoint.
The WoT personality test would be fascinating. I think you could construct quite a good one using a mix of standard questions and WoT-related examples combining a five-factor personality test and an authoritarianism scale. I think you’d need authoritarian temperament theory in there, given how intensely issues of authority v. autonomy inform the text and characters.
(Is now seriously considering writing this test for fun and wondering how many people in this group would take it if it went live on Qualtrics. . .)
Minor spelling issue @@@@@ the very end of the article…
“…appeals to the wanderlust in all of us.”
This is a great series! I, too, read The Wheel of Time later than most but my love & enthusiasm for the series pales not in comparison. I look forward to hearing more from you and the responses contained in the comment thread. Thx again!!
@68 – Fixed, thank you!
@61 I remember seeing a young man named Perrin running for office in California a couple years ago. Also my friend’s high schooler dated a Siuan!
@50
I think you can’t overly generalize based on birth order – too many conflating variables. Like Lisamarie, my one and only sibling was born 12 years after me, so for many of my formative years I was an only child. I was closer to being like a parent to him than a brother, at least until we were both grown up.
Anyway, all that said, I first read WoT at 21, and absolutely despised Nynaeve for the first 5 or 6 books. I didn’t like her bossiness, her certainty that she was right, and her tendency to want to cut my favorite characters (Rand, Mat and Perrin) down a peg or three. I’ve since reread the series 2 or 3 more times. Now, reading it at 38, Nynaeve is one of my favorites. Her internal thought process and the disconnect with how she acts is just hilarious. And I admire and appreciate her protective and noble side. I find myself agreeing with her more than I used to. Yes, those kids ARE being wool-headed!
So count me in the camp that thinks that your evolving perspective as a human and where you are in your life when you experience a story has more to do with how you perceive and relate to characters. It’s broader than simple birth order.
@60. Reading you named your daughter Laurel made me very happy. That was my wife’s name. We were married for 43 years but she passed away too young last year and I miss her every day of my life. It’s a beautiful name.
I don’t agree that Nynaeve’s dislike for Moiraine is irrational. She takes her role as Wisdom very seriously and as such, she views these village teens as her responsibility. She also feels Moiraine led them into danger without sufficient information. In that, she is not wrong. Yes, she takes it too far but her emotions are grounded on some basis.
As far as Egwyne dislike, lack of loyalty is a symptom, in my opinion. It’s been commented that Leigh Butler loved Egwyne as an ooh! ooh! girl. I don’t disagree. But all personality characteristics can have downsides if carried too far. In Egwyne’s case, I see her as carrying that to the point of being borderline narcissistic. I also see how some could use the same argument against Nynaeve.
(moderator, I don’t think this was spoilerish but please white out anything if you disagree).
That’s a great list of questions. Keep ’em handy. ;-)
Aw, thanks for the apology.
What I love about Nyneave is, in some ways, her stubbornness. She’s passionate and loyal about those she protects (or thinks she protects). And yes, she takes it too far at times and her self-awareness is sometimes not the greatest. But one of the things I appreciate her about a character is that the story lets her be an angry, rough around the edges type of character without trying to soften her by the end. She has some personality flaws and traits that probably rub people the wrong way. For what it’s worth, while I recognize a lot of Mat’s heroism, he’d probably also get on my nerves in real life.
As for Egwene, I was surprised to learn how much vitriol there is against her, as well. She’s maybe not a top 3 favorite, but I do really like her as well as what she accomplishes when thrown into what was intended to be a no-win scenario.
Now, as for controversial characters that are not well-liked, one of the characters I have to admit I really love even though she honestly IS borderline abusive (although obviously not from her cultural perspective which is all sorts of messed up) and also responsible for some of the most aggravating plotlines is…//Faile//. I don’t know why, I just do! Part of me just gets a kick out her spunk and drive and determination and fire, although again, in real life…not sure how much I could tolerate her (or want anybody to be in a relationship with her)!
As for (non-villain/antagonist) characters I hate even though they also have their share of fans – I completely despise //Berelain// and am really not fond of //Tylin//. I find both of them to be //sexually manipulative, coercive and just generally gross people, despite whatever good qualities as leaders they may have.// And I think for me, those types of qualities are basically the dealbreakers for me.
I envy you is all I will say… I have read and reread the series and heard about half of them on Audio books (which I highly recommend listening to either concurrently as you read some of them at times if possible…it greatly helped with Pronunciation of names and places and cultures and the female and male actor who read the parts are the best I have ever heard read. Enjoy the experience, it only comes but once… :) (other readers will get that last line of mine)
1. and 2. Hang on on to your hat, it’s going to be a wild ride as we travel all over the continent and meet practically all its inhabitants.
3. I wanted to learn more about the Aes Sedai too. So I bought the prequel book ‘New Spring’. It will tell you all you ever wanted to know about the sisters and it won’t spoil anything if you’ve read Eye of the World.
Roll over for spoilers:
//4. Let’s just say it’s not a simple road trip to Illian with the Horn.
5. Don’t worry, Fain is the gift that keeps giving.
6. We haven’t seen the last of that darn dagger either.
7. The taint issue is not going to be resolved in ‘The Great Hunt’.
8. Denial thy name is Rand Al’Thor.//
Note: message edited by moderator to white out potential spoilers.
I’m really envious of you for getting to explore this wonderful world for the first time. I started reading the series back in 1997 and was immediately hooked! The answers to all your questions will be forthcoming very shortly. As for the different points of view, you will get your wish soon. In fact, at one point it will get a little confusing because there are so many people from which you will be able to view the story, including Perrin, Loial, and some other key characters you haven’t been introduced yet.
I also listened to the Michael Kramer/Kate Reading audio versions of the books and you are right. They do such a fantastic job that they bring the characters to life for me in a way my own reading doesn’t.
@@@@@ 72 – I am so sorry for your loss and happy that you got 43 wonderful years with your wife. I pray I get at least that long with my husband.
@@@@@ Evelina Thank you!
@76
Your answers to #4-#6 are kinda spoilerish, but 7 and 8 definitely are!
Oh my, you’re only on the first book… young padawan, you have so much more to learn. Oh so much. You can’t even imagine how much.
Have fun though. Your guesses are amusingly insightful.
@70, Darn. I thought I’d been general enough. How do you white out anyway?
But no where on this list are questions about styles of dresses and flyaway bits of hair that need to be tucked in? Is this even about Wheel of Time?
princessroxana @82: Highlight the text in the editing box that you want to have be white. There are two icons on top of the comment box that look like “A”; the left one changes the text color and the right one the background color; select white from the correct menu. Preview your comment and the selected text should be white. (There used to be a bug that you needed to do this _before_ you Previewed your comment the first time or it wouldn’t work, but I haven’t tested that in a while.)
@83 – well played!
@83 Sylas hasn’t read Book 2 yet. Jordan really doesn’t start talking about clothes until TGH, except the one passage about Moiraine’s outfit in the Two Rivers that doesn’t surprise readers because it reflects Rand’s surprise at seeing clothes like that for the first time.
//This is another reason I recommend TGH as a good point to decide whether to keep reading or not. The clothes description habit starts in earnest there, though IMHO at least in that book it’s brilliantly deployed as a thematic exploration of how Rand is shaped by his clothes, the way they subconsciously influence his behavior, and people’s perceptions of him mediated through the clothes rather than the amusing-to-annoying tic it becomes.//
I got to admit I find the differences in costume even within kingdoms quite interesting.
I’ve said it before. Don’t know if it was here or on one of Leigh’s post, but for my money, Nynaeve is one of the most well-characterized fictional person I’ve ever read. Robert Jordan was fantastic at character, and I think Nynaeve is the most realistically drawn character he ever created.
And I can’t stand her, for the most part.
Egwene gets equal parts love, hate and “she’s ok, I guess.” Mat gets mostly universal like, with a few dissenters. Rand and Perrin gets almost nothing from anyone, they just exist. A few people love them, a few can’t stand them, but for most its just “Yeah, they’re ok.”
But Nynaeve… oh Nynaeve. Everyone either loves her passionately or hates her from the depth of their soul. And yes, I know there are some of you who just don’t care one way or the other, just like with other characters, but Nynaeve seems to draw the most strong reactions one way or another. And that’s because she’s brilliantly characterized. We feel like we really know her, and therefore have a strong opinion.
Its difficult to get into her characterization (or Mat’s) without spoilers, but they are very, very similar in ways that they would completely argue with me over, lol. They are the least self-aware of the group, but for entirely different reasons. Nynaeve’s is insecurity. And Robert Jordan tells us right away where it comes from. She grew up young, was thrust in to a position she was not mature enough to handle because of innate talent (oh boy, can I relate to that), and she had to fight and claw for every bit of authority she could muster in order to a job that she didn’t really think she had the experience to handle. And it shaped her into what we see at the start of The Eye of the World. And, like almost every real person I’ve ever seen, this default for her shapes all of her interactions for the rest of her life, because she tells a different narrative to herself in order to cope.
Mat’s lack of self-awareness is different, and colored and muddled by events that haven’t happened yet, so I can’t really talk about him. But their central flaw is exactly the same–it just manifests differently.
Perrin and Egwene are the exact opposite–self-aware, perhaps to a fault. They both had more stable upbringings, got to be apprenticed to community leaders. Egwene to Nynaeve and Perrin to Master Lewhan. But this self-awareness manifests itself differently. Perrin is slow to take action, but resolute once a decision is made. Egwene–well, that’s spoiler territory at this point. But, like Mat and Nynaeve, this trait manifests itself differently in each, because of personality. Its all quite well done. And its why I love this story more than any entertainment ever.
That is such a good analysis :)
I don’t think this is terribly spoilery, but after seeing Solo, I can’t help but think Han and Mat are very much cut from the same cloth when it comes to their ‘self awareness’ and the image they try to present vs what they really are deep down.
I quite enjoy Nynaeve as a character and didn’t find her personality annoying, though it’s rather different from mine and I don’t know if we would have gotten along in real life. But I can’t say I passionately love her. ///I do love that she’s the story’s champion healer/Healer, with a drive that matches her skill. I generally like healer types. ///
Didn’t name any kids for WOT characters, but we named our house the “Heron House” – My wife still thinks its for the heron statues I brought back from China but let’s just say that WOT strongly influenced me when I pitched the name to her :-)
Yeah, good analysis on the characters Anthony Pero, especially given it had to be done without spoilers.
As a Moiraine fan I wouldn’t have shed too many tears had Nynaeve tumbled down a well early in the books :) Ultimately, I don’t find her as the least fun or likeable from the major characters. One doesn’t have to like her to enjoy her scenes and POVs. In fact it in some cases it helps if you don’t like her or have been annoyed by her. Her slightly more mature POVs were nice change from the ones of the younger guys.
Whew! What a blast!
And so, Sylas, as everybody else has been saying since the start of this blog, you’re insight is both so uncannily accurate and so far off base that it can be almost hysterically funny. For example, // I really love the idea of Rand carrying a water-skin of pure Saidin around with him, but that is just so impractical a device for this series that it couldn’t work. And this makes it hilarious. // As a concept, though, I might have to consider using it in something myself, // though I suppose, it’s not that unique and basically how Warbreaker’s magic-fuel and tLAB bending material is stored. // Regardless, cheers for that!
And now a question for you. Presuming you take a week or two off, but regardless of a ‘when’, will you be covering the tEotW epilogue? Or will you be skipping to tGH and, if so, will you be covering the prologue, or will you just jump straight into Chapter 1?
AeronaGreenjoy: @38: Yep, over 2k and we almost always know which one we’re talking about at any given time! “You remember that one guy in that one scene that says [line of speech]” “Oh yeah, the one with the [description of appearance or item]”. Only in WoT!
Ann Onimous: @41: I second your suggestion. I would love Sylas to add an addendum to the bottom of all his future posts listing new questions added to the folder and questions that have been answered. Even if it’s just a tally total for each!
Lisamarie: @45: Yes! TBH, I would argue the last five books are all basically about how awesome Nynaeve is!
Mutantalbinocrocodile:
@47: Indeed. My favourite covers are the plain-black-with-embossed-[stand-out-colour]-WoT-logo. I don’t believe I need to articulate the reason why.
@67: I WILL TAKE THIS TEST! I feel my continued sanity may now depend upon being able to participate, and I thank you in advance for your gracious offer to write it.
@91 Would respectfully have suggested “Heron Mark House”
@93: Heh, I’ve forgotten everything about some large percentage of WoT characters. I can actually do that mental process with A Song of Ice and Fire characters, despite that story’s quite large cast, mostly because I obsess over their many genealogies and how they all relate to each other.
//Cads and some of the others later do use Wells to store the OP. At least in Far Madding it is useful.//
I know I am going to butcher this quote about Nynaeve: // Birgitte (one of my other favourite characters) says something to her along the lines of “I like you because of your flaws, not in spite of them.” //
My favourite thing about Nynaeve is she reminds me of other friends I have. They tell me exactly what they think, they let me know when I’m being a twit, but they love me unconditionally. Warts and all. They can be difficult friends, but they have helped me in ways far beyond what I deserve. And knowing they are my friends makes me think I might not be such an awful person myself.
@tbgh (#19)
I”m back, baby! Not sure how many of you will be happy with that news, though. Then again, as the much-discussed Nynaeve would say: I’m also not sure how much or how little I care. Nor of how honest I am to myself on how much I care….. :D
At any rate, I’ve been having some fun making a game of trying to figure out which your answers go with which of Sylas’ questions. I’m not saying I fully agree with every question-answer pair I’ve concocted [I was mostly going off of what I think you might be thinking],but this is what I’ve managed to come up with (obviously going to be at least half whited-out):
1. Point of View changes : //And even more of these//
2, New Characters : //So, so many coming.//
3. The Aes Sedai : //Annoyingly, yes on many levels//
4. The Horn : //You would think not, but….//
5. Padan Fain / Mordeth : //Annoyingly, you’re right, for many more books //
6. The Shadar Logoth dagger : //Way, way off base//
7. The Taint : //HAHAHAHA. So very wrong. And so very right.//
8. The Dragon Reborn : //So many different levels to that question. RAFO//
It probably won’t happen, but I would absolutely love if you could write a comment telling me how much, and possibly which ones, I got right.
@93 it may be a little while before I have time to import a customized five-factor plus an authoritarianism scale into Qualtrics, but watch Sylas’ comments for the link. :)
Low hanging fruit here, but it is a Wheel of Time on Tor tradition.
I claim the hunny.
Does anyone know when the next post will come?
@101 tomas115 Check back in a few years…
It’s so disappointing that this feature was cancelled. I enjoyed reading it so much.
@103 What? Where does it say it was cancelled?
I enjoyed reading your liveblog a lot! Looking forward to you reading the Great Hunt.
@98 Very close.
//Flip 1 & 2, given away by the ‘And’ as well as the fact that the number of new characters vastly outnumbers the number of viewpoint characters.//
@35- About many people loving the GH. except some of them 7-10 it is my least favorite. it’s dargged so much //the traveling and getting lost in mirror universe and the traveling with Lanfear so dragged. And also I hate what they’ve done to Egwene, this book has so many darker tones then the first, that it was hard to stomach// Can’t really say which one is my favorite, but 3-6 as posted last chapters here are epic.
Nyneave and Mat and //Birgitte // and of course Lan are my favorites (I think. You see as Anthony Pero said the characters Jordan created are on so many levels great (yes, the greatest entertainment indeed) that it is tough to say through all the books, that this one or that one are always the best.
Like so many others, I too have succumbed and have started reading WoT AGAIN! And it’s a very inconvenient time with lots of other things I should be doing, of course.
I played catch up on TEOTW and zoomed through the book. As I start TGH, I hope to pace myself more as Sylas does.
Many thanks to whomever linked to the Neuxue site. I’m tracking with her posts too. I read along with Leigh’s Reread and Reread Redux in real time but never discovered Lia. She makes me laugh out loud ;-b
At the rate you all are progressing, I may well catch up with you in real time. I don’t plan to comment again until I do.